Nov. 16, 2021

Is Apple Still #1 in Podcasting?

Today we dive into the state of the podcast listener experience from where people are listening to podcasts. We hear a lot about Spotify making a big play in podcasting, but how well the efforts have been working. It’s a good thing there are tools these days to measure this, and recent news suggests the big bet is paying off.

As a podcaster, how you deliver the podcast, share, and curate your website can make a big difference to how easy it is for the customer to listen to the podcast. Here are the big-ticket items that are often overlooked that Mathew consults on. 


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[00:02] - Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to Podcast meaning and asking anything for all Things Podcasting. I'm your host, Ben Killoy, and I am joined here in the studio with Matthew passing the podcast control. Matthew and I wanted to move the conversations beyond the podcasting one on one topics move into the intermediate to advanced podcasting strategy to reach your goals to interact with the show, submit your questions to be answered live. Book a podcast, Matthew, or find the notes from today's show. Head on over to podcastnaathing. Com on this podcast episode, we are going to be talking to Matthew Pass, the podcast consultant.

[00:35] - Speaker 1
We're going to dive into listener experience and some recent news that just came within out on that where people are listening to the podcast. We're going to be talking about where people are getting their podcast. But then also how can people share their podcast? That is something that is the number one question that Matthew gets all the time. And we're going to open the doors up on some back end things that I get to ask Matthew a question on and he doesn't know what's coming and he has to answer the question on the spot.

[01:00] - Speaker 1
So Matthew, welcome to Podcast.

[01:03] - Speaker 2
Thank you, Ben. Good to be here.

[01:05] - Speaker 1
So let's dive right in this recent news that Apple, who has been the King of podcasting since they really invented it way back when they add the purple icon to the iphone. Well before even people are clicking it. There's recent news out that Spotify is getting ready to overtake Apple. Where was your mind when you first read the headline?

[01:25] - Speaker 2
My first thought was it's about time. In most places outside of the US, Spotify is already the dominant marketplace for podcast consumption. We have a very US centric mindset when it comes to everything that we do. But when it comes to podcasting, we really have that US centric mindset where Apple is a 50% market share of the smartphone universe with Android. But when you get out of the US, it's not nearly as equal. And so outside of the US, where you don't have as many iphone users and as many Apple users and Apple is not existent on non Apple phones.

[02:03] - Speaker 2
Spotify is already the number one location for podcast consumption. So my thinking here was it was only a matter of time. Also, there have been a number of different reports like the one that we usually use to say that Apple is the dominant player are usually numbers that come from Rob Walsh, vice President over at Libson, one of the top and oldest podcast hosting companies out there, and they always look into their analytics, the shows on their platform to say here's where most of the downloads come from and for them for the past gosh, I want to say four or five years that he's been giving that reported podcast and podcast movement.

[02:39] - Speaker 2
It's been Apple at like 70% Spotify most recently, like 20% to 30% and then everybody else kind of eating up the remainders. But there have been some other platforms to release data that would suggest Spotify was closer, if not larger, already in the US. So not surprised, especially also not surprised given that, like you said, everybody with an iphone has seen the Purple icon for the last six, seven, eight years. Whatever it is before, that podcast was just built into some of your other Apple entertainment apps.

[03:21] - Speaker 2
But recently, with the most recent update of the Apple iOS, the podcasting app has actually the most recent when they refresh that thing. Maybe two years ago, that podcasting app got really annoying for lots and lots of different reasons. It's still the most popular one to use. But personally, I think it was three or four years ago when they made the switch that I stopped using the Apple app, and I started using a different podcast consumption app. And I think that was the point where I thought Apple is going to lose its dominance over the market.

[03:52] - Speaker 2
So the fact that this is coming, I don't think it's a surprise at all.

[03:58] - Speaker 1
Let's do a time travel. Let's go back maybe like five to six years, because Apple has literally been at the top for a long, long time, and any competitor has really struggled to even touch it. What do you think made even now the right time? Because the last four or five years in podcasting, if you look inside the podcasting world, it's been really abundant of players, money, big ideas. But yet Apple still is number one right up until even just post pandemic here.

[04:28] - Speaker 2
I think you've got a couple of different reasons why that's been the case. One, it's easier to be the dominant platform when you own the platform, right. If you have an Apple device, it comes with the Apple podcasting app, whereas you have to go and figure out which other podcasting app is best for you if you don't want to use the big Purple one. And while podcasting is growing and more people are aware of it, and more people are listening more regularly. It's still a tech forward kind of trend.

[05:00] - Speaker 2
So the people who listen more regularly, who listen all the time, who are consumed by podcasts. They've been doing it long enough. They've been able to explore and check out some of the apps. But if you're newer to podcast, then if you dip your toe in the water, maybe listen to that one show for work or oh, my friends all told me about this one podcast, so I check it out, right? Like you're not spending the time and or the money going out there trying to discover what is the best app for your listening experience.

[05:30] - Speaker 2
You're going because that app is already on your phone. Also, you might have been introduced to podcasts because another platform that you use for entertainment say music consumption has started to introduce or started to make podcasting a big part of what they do. And of course, in this case, we'll pick on Spotify because yes, Pandora has been doing podcasting Stitcher and I Heart and all these different platforms that have music also do podcasting. But Spotify has made some of the most concerted efforts to boost podcast awareness to its users, as well as make some massive investments in the podcasting space, the acquisition of anchor and megaphone and buying up shows and talents like the Joe Rogan show.

[06:20] - Speaker 2
They are putting podcasts as part of their strategy because it is a little bit cheaper for them to get you to listen to podcast than it is for you to listen to music because they don't have to pay as much for the rights for you to listen to a podcast. If somebody listens to this show on the Spotify platform, we don't get anything. We do not receive any compensation for having our show belong on the Spotify platform, whereas if I were Elton John and you just played my song, you have to pay some royalties on that.

[06:54] - Speaker 2
So they've made a big effort to get podcasting in the forefront. They've put a lot of money behind. Like I said, technology talent, and they put a lot of money just advertising the podcasts are available and encouraging their users to listen to podcasts. So I think that's played a big part of it. And some of the other entertainment platforms are seeing that and saying, oh, wow, it's working for Spotify. So we've got to try that too. Also, Spotify is available on everything, right? They're not just locked into the Apple Ecosphere.

[07:23] - Speaker 2
They can be on Apple and on Google.

[07:26] - Speaker 1
And there's even the component of being on your Windows computer. I remember when I had a Windows computer. I had Spotify there. I had it on my phone. You can play it on your TV, like the connectedness to all the places that you most likely are using some other operating system. It's there, and you have access to that same thing.

[07:43] - Speaker 2
And the one is you could have done that with the itunes, like the old itunes app. You could have done that on a PC. The podcast app. To be honest, once they rolled out, they separated the podcast app from itunes. I don't even know if you can get the podcast app on a PC, but you could have gotten itunes years ago, and that's how you used to. It was always clock.

[08:02] - Speaker 1
You never made a good media player on a Windows computer.

[08:05] - Speaker 2
Oh, 100%. Yes, but right. Even as a media player in general, itunes was heavy and clunky and slowed down your systems. And we've had plenty of clients who are like, I have to install itunes. No, I'm not interested, right? Because it is so resource heavy and slow on a PC.

[08:27] - Speaker 1
I want to switch to a slightly same gear with Spotify from a different lens is the one thing that I've also liked with Spotify is they create this ecosystem to also build listenership. So they've launched their advertising system in the back end, which gives you access to the music advertising component, but then also built in advertising within the podcast component. And for just $250, you can actually buy and target geographically anywhere in the United States, probably the world, even an ad that you read for 30 seconds.

[08:56] - Speaker 1
And there isn't a podcast player platform that gives you such ease of use, the usability of targeting everybody and being able to grow your podcast by reaching into other people's podcasts through advertising that I think gives it a win win and takes it something that Apple never really did. They never helped you be discovered other than new and noteworthy category. That was the only thing to get in the beginning, which was always really hard, and they never told you how to do it. Other than that, there hasn't been a lot of, like launch on Apple, so we can help you grow.

[09:27] - Speaker 1
Spotify at least gives you a tool in the back end that you can actually buy your way into listeners ears, which the best podcast players offer. Some built in advertising where a podcaster can buy an ad in the category very quickly and say, hey, if someone is listening to this, present my ad for my podcast because they'll probably like it as well. And I think that's something that Apple really lost out on. And Spotify is doing a really good job with. Have you seen anything related to that?

[09:53] - Speaker 2
I think you make a couple of really great points in there and that anybody can buy ads into podcasting ecosphere. But right, Spotify made this super easy, consumer facing portal where you don't have to have thousands of dollars. You don't have to work with a sales broker to buy ads into their system to advertise your show. And again, because so many people are familiar with the brand Spotify, it was an easy thing right overcast as an ad marketplace. They're not audio ads, but the point is like you can buy ads in the Overcast app, but unless you know what overcast is, you're not necessarily going to find that or think about that or jump in onto that place.

[10:29] - Speaker 2
Whereas again, everybody knows what Spotify is. But I think the other point that you bring up about the way Spotify is treating the marketplace that Apple hasn't is always. Apple has been the leader in podcast consumption, the leader in podcast awareness, and yet has done little to nothing to actually support the podcast community. You mentioned the new and noteworthy, which there was a time where there was a formula and a way to hack your way into new and noteworthy, but that quickly got sussed out and they shut that down.

[11:06] - Speaker 2
Now it's basically an editorial choice by the people at Apple. And surprise, surprise, who are they going to pick? Big, famous, well known brands and names because Apple's Play has always been, we have the best podcasting platform because it will help drive more devices. Apple has never really done a lot to monetize the podcast themselves. That's evident in the fact that they finally unveiled a paid subscriber option this year, which I've been talking about for ten years. I'm surprised nobody like they didn't do it sooner.

[11:40] - Speaker 2
And Patreon and Supercast and all these other places jumped into the fray, right? You have Megaphone Spotify Academy, all these different places that allow folks to buy ads on podcast consumption platforms. And Apple has never made advertising part of the podcast distribution or consumption experience, which fine, like selling ads is not necessarily Apple's strong suit, but it's a missed opportunity because that could have been a way to make revenue and have a stronger focus on podcasting. I'm also surprised Google, by the way, hasn't done a better job or been ahead of that since they are an ad company, right?

[12:23] - Speaker 2
That's how Google makes money. It's selling ads on their networks on search results, whatever. I think that was a majorly blown opportunity by Google not getting ahead of everybody else on this front. So I think you make a good point that Apple hasn't really done enough to bolster the podcast community. They have probably done a decent job helping to bolster podcast awareness by having the app talking about podcasts and advertising them here and there like, including that as part of their marketing message. But I think they missed out on a massive opportunity, especially since they had a 15 year lead on everybody else to do it.

[13:08] - Speaker 2
So all that is to say, I don't know if Apple is finally getting into it based on the way that all these features have rolled out based on the clunky experience that people get when they use the podcasting app, the clunkier experience that the producers have been getting on the back end with the unveiling of subscriptions the new Apple platform. Just all these different things are getting people super frustrated with Apple as the leader in podcasting and have just opened the door for others to jump into the fray and take over and get ahead of them on that.

[13:41] - Speaker 2
So none of this is really surprising right now.

[13:44] - Speaker 1
And you also highlight that I'm a big Apple keynote vent type watching every time I launch, I will never forget Tom Cook walking between bushes. Tim Cook wrong person there, walking through between the bushes and talking about how Apple was at the beginning of podcasting. We're still at the front of podcasting. We love podcasting. We are reinventing podcasting by adding channels. We're redesigning the app and they make you feel you can trust us again with Apple podcast, and then the exact opposite, almost to a 10th degree, happens with their rollout.

[14:19] - Speaker 1
I think what we're also seeing is an erosion of that trust, especially because he went out there and said with his words, this is our podcasting vision. And then the exact opposite has come through that it's going to take a lot of goodwill to rebuild what people have found with Apple podcast. And I think that's what we're seeing with the trend in Spotify because I have no reason not to trust Spotify. I actually have no idea who is a public facing person for Spotify. I don't listen to any Spotify things.

[14:46] - Speaker 1
I just use the app and it works. And so it's just an opportunity where they do a really good job, just bringing you into the experience naturally versus Apple, like hyping it up and then under delivering.

[14:56] - Speaker 2
Yeah, I think you make it a great point. They have eroded a lot of trust, and I'm not seeing it on the massive scale yet, but I'm seeing piecemeal different podcasters posting in the groups and talking on Twitter and saying, hey, my number one platform was X. Should I be promoting that platform? Yeah, right. You don't have to be like a download on Spotify is a download on Apple is a download on downloads or downloads. So if you're going to pull 90,000 downloads from I don't know, Google and only 5000 from Apple, that doesn't make you any less successful than someone who's going to pull 90,000 downloads on Apple and 5000 from Google.

[15:40] - Speaker 2

[15:40] - Speaker 1

[15:42] - Speaker 2
Figure out where your audience is or figure out what is the easiest way to get your audience to listen to your show and provide those instructions. Provide that insight to them.

[15:54] - Speaker 1
That's a good pivot for our next section, where we want to deep dive into a question that you get all the time, which is how to enhance and get more people to listen to my podcast, which you put all the work into the podcast you're ready to launch, you start producing you. Hey, keep it and publish, and the downloads don't grow, which is the number one reason there's got to be something wrong that I'm doing. So they reach out, they book a scheduling call with you, you jump on the phone and you're actually maybe looking for what they're not seeing and what they're not saying.

[16:22] - Speaker 1
Tell me more about that. Yeah.

[16:24] - Speaker 2
So everybody wants to know, how do they grow their podcast, right? If they are even on my side, if they're in my universe, if they're booking a call with me, they're obviously in a place where they need more downloads, more listeners, more growth, whatever. And what I find with so many of the people who I talk to is that they've gotten ahead of themselves. They are driving as many people as possible to their show. And then when those people get there, they are giving all those people plenty of reason not to subscribe, not to hit play, not to follow.

[17:00] - Speaker 2
I'll give you a great example. Anytime somebody is promoting their podcast on social media and they are using a link to a specific platform, you have just cost yourself a massive amount of audience. For example, if let's say we're promoting this episode of the show and we put a link to Apple, all we say is new episode of the podcast is up. Check us out on Apple podcast. Well, even here in the United States, you just told 50% of your potential audience. Screw you. We don't really want you to listen, right?

[17:30] - Speaker 2
Because you don't have an Apple device. And so this link doesn't mean anything to you, even amongst people who do have an Apple device. A lot of them don't listen on Apple. So now I've just told them, oh, well, if you want to listen to your platform, you got to go out and find us and search us and do the work. But again, more people in this world, I think actually technically have an Android device. So by only putting in a link to one platform, you are telling everybody else, hey, if you don't listen to this platform, you're not cool enough to be in the club.

[17:59] - Speaker 2
And so the one thing I always tell people to stop driving folks to a platform. Apple doesn't need any more of our traffic. Google doesn't need any more of our traffic. Lips and Spotify podcast. These companies are doing fine. Drive them to your home, your website, your location for this podcast. And these days with WordPress, Wix Squarespace, Pod page, podcast pages. Right. There's enough options that you can build a simple, easy podcast website and drive people to that to make it easier to grow your listenership.

[18:36] - Speaker 2
When you put a link to your podcast in social media, in an email list or whatever, where you don't have the ability for people to play it. And frankly, most people aren't going to play audio on Twitter while they're scrolling through it anyway. But if you're going to drive people to a place to check out your podcast, they've got to be able to do three things really easily. One, they got to be able to listen to the show. Two, if they like the show, they've got to be able to subscribe.

[19:01] - Speaker 2
And three, if they're subscribed, you want them to be able to connect with you. So there should be links to your email, your social, whatever. All of that should be done from your website. So that's, like, one of the big things I see is people are constantly making it hard for people to become one of their followers. The other thing that happens is they get so excited, they've got a new podcast, they've spent a ton of money driving people to it, and they're not doing their show well.

[19:29] - Speaker 2
Or they were so caught up in getting the show launched and getting a bigger audience that they didn't focus on the show itself.


[19:38] - Speaker 2
If you tell the world, hey, this is a show about X, and then your first episode is about Y and Z. Might be good, but I'm here for X, right? You told me to check out X. So now you're a liar. You don't live up to your promises. And frankly, you're not going to win me back.


[19:57] - Speaker 2
So people get so focused on trying to drive people to check out their podcasts for the first time, but they're driving people to a bad experience. Drive people to a good like, get your house in order first. Create a good experience, right? That means typos. That means broken links. That means having the ability to play, having the right subscribe links. All these little itty bitty things that sound like nonsense have a huge impact if you don't take your show seriously, if you can't take the production of your show, the display of your show, the marketing of your show.

[20:38] - Speaker 2
Seriously, I as an audience, I'm probably not going to take listening to your show very seriously. And look, it's okay. You don't have to. Not every podcast has to be successful. Not every podcast has to have a billion listeners. I'm not saying you are not allowed to be a podcaster without these things, but don't get mad that the audience isn't coming. If when you've brought them to your house, the house is disheveled, the toilet is stuffed, the pictures on the wall are all Askew, and the food you serve has bugs on it.

[21:10] - Speaker 2
Right? Like, I'm not coming back. It's not a good experience. Why should I be here? And that's not even about quality. I know a lot of people are like, well, that means you have to have a good Mark and you got to do this. I'm not being an audio snob. That's not what I'm trying to say. And I think Dave Jackson of the School of Podcasting has said this before, and if not, I'm going to steal credit for it anyway. Right? I've never had a person listen to a show and say, you know what, Ben?

[21:37] - Speaker 2
That was the most boring show I've ever listened to. But man, did they use good mics, right? That has never happened. I'm not subscribing to a show that is a waste of my time just because their audio quality is better than somebody else's. Now there's a bare minimum of what makes your good content possible. But focus on creating content that creates value. Most of us and now a subscription is a little bit different, but most of us are giving content away for free. We are asking people to invest their time.

[22:10] - Speaker 2
If you want me to invest my time in your show, don't waste it. That is what is mostly missing in people's ability to grow their show.

[22:20] - Speaker 1
I can tell you've, given that speech a lot, and there's a lot of emotion behind it, of annoyingness, of just create a great experience. And because you generally focus on business podcasts, I thought of this really good analogy. There is a reason why corporate lobbies look really nice, that they have core values hanging on the wall. They have the Secretary sitting behind the best desk in the building. These are all part of the emotional experience that when a customer walks in, especially if you have a building where customers are walking in, you want to present a feeling that you know what you're doing, that you have your stuff together, that you're going to present something.

[23:00] - Speaker 1
And more importantly, when you do sell something to this customer that just walked into your lobby, that they have this idea that it's all tied together, that this isn't just something on the outside. This is how they feel on the inside. It's your first impression. So if any business minded podcaster out here and you would have a lobby that has a nice actual presentation to a customer, the challenge that I would kind of sum up there with Matthew is are you creating the same welcoming experience of your branding, your message, your core values as a person as a company is that coming in within 30 seconds?

[23:33] - Speaker 1
Can someone imagine what your corporate building lobby looks like with the professionalness of your intro to your podcast? Even the same thing with the sharing of the link? It's the same idea when someone clicks that link, they're going into your lobby. Does it look like someone's garage that hasn't been cleaned out, or does it look like an episode of Hoarders that really hasn't been cleaned out? All of these different ideas are often can be that first impression. And whether they even get a chance to listen to your episode, the first impression can be like, you know what?

[24:02] - Speaker 1
The house speaks volumes. I'm out.

[24:05] - Speaker 2
You know what? That lobby, that lobby can't go out onto the street and attract people.

[24:09] - Speaker 1
No, right.

[24:10] - Speaker 2
Lobby is never advertising for you. But you're right. When you show up, it speaks volumes about who you are, who your business is. And if you are this particular, this smart, this detailed about those things, then you are probably going to do a detailed job on my work as opposed to the other way around.

[24:32] - Speaker 1
And probably since Corona, I'm sure you've seen this that a brand starts a podcast to be the extension of their emotional experience as a company from if you were to walk in the building versus when customers now can't maybe walk into the building, that your podcast is essentially the same idea. If you're going to spend $50,000 to revenue your lobby and now post Corona, you don't really need a lobby. That same type of mindset should be done on your podcast. And you can definitely notice when the production quality and not just the audio quality with your microphone.

[25:02] - Speaker 1
But how is it actually assembled? Because when you see the mechanics of a podcast put together well, with nice music fading in between different segments like it's hosted properly, those moments like, say, like, yes, this is the extension of her brand. And if you were to walk in her lobby, you would feel the same. And it's that no like and trust that really a business minded podcast is trying to generate and attract. So I could easily see how that gets in the way. And what I've also like to captivate is those listen links because those listen links are like gold.

[25:33] - Speaker 1
It's that one link that tells you exactly where everything is at, and it's a quick link. I actually have it saved on my phone as a keyboard shortcut that I type my podcast in and abbreviated it converts it to the listen link. I can paste it in a comment, and no matter where that person is coming from, everything is set up in my listen link, and it tells them exactly. And I've never seen it's. One of the reasons why I love captivate because it brings that first moment right in there because you want them to go into your lobby and there's a nice big sign in your lobby saying here pick the right door and you can walk right through and listen and all the other things.

[26:05] - Speaker 1
Even a website could be tricky trying to list out all the different players and giving the right one there in the front. So that listing link is really a good way with captivate to capitalize on what you're just talking about. Yeah.

[26:16] - Speaker 2
And I would say there's another good point about how many listed links to use for now. I always say stick with the top four and top four, meaning most recognizable, which is Apple for now. Still obvious. Most people know what Apple is. Google most people right. Either you have an Apple phone or you have a Google phone. So those two are you covered everybody Spotify. As we just said, world renowned entertainment platform. Most people know what Spotify is and or use it the last one I've been telling people to include in their subscribe buttons or links Amazon because again, maybe people don't know that you can listen to podcast on Amazon.

[26:53] - Speaker 2
But everybody knows what Amazon is, right. Not everybody knows what a Stitcher is. A tune in an overcast, the podcast addicts, a pod dog. Like, I can list 100 podcasting platforms that are good, right? I love overcast, but I'm a power podcast user. If I want to find your show on overcast, I know how to do it. If you're bringing someone in who's not as familiar with podcasting, don't give them too many choices. Don't make it confusing. Say, pick one of these things that you're familiar with to check us out.

[27:20] - Speaker 2
So those are the four that I would focus on.

[27:22] - Speaker 1
I like that you mentioned Amazon, and we'll conclude this part with this thought that Amazon is kind of like at the early stages where their full hand hasn't been revealed, they're actually just introducing their name connected with the podcast categories are already going out there. I don't think we've actually seen what they've done with. They bought in the same amount of money. Podcasting dot com for a million dollars. If I remember, I feel like a lot of the fact that you got it from me.

[27:46] - Speaker 2
I thought I was going to get that one.

[27:49] - Speaker 1
A lot of what they're showing up with. I don't feel like we've actually seen their full hand, and they're just introducing we're also part of the podcasting world. And so I think it's the next kind of Spotify where they have the money. They have the belief that they can do anything they put their mind to, and they're going to go in a way that most of the other players can't because of the money and the resources they can throw at something. And so I feel like they're just getting going.

[28:09] - Speaker 1
So you don't want to be behind. And once people kind of realize that Amazon does have it either through Alexa or the Amazon Music app, or even they just did an Audible. Now it's going to be in places where people are already kind of listening and have a growth mindset, which is usually an average podcast listener as well.

[28:26] - Speaker 2
Can you imagine going on Amazon dot com to look for something? And now you can buy an ad next to products for your podcast.

[28:32] - Speaker 1
It could be coming or even create an affiliate link for another podcast where you can get different percentages for having your products listed somewhere and share whatever the cost is, there could be a similar one for a very quick way to do an ad run. We don't know what their full play is, because when you spend a million dollars on our domain, there's definitely a full play that I don't think we've fully seen yet.

[28:54] - Speaker 2
Yeah, I would agree with that.

[28:56] - Speaker 1
Let's go into our last session where I get to ask you a question, and this question is particularly one for our inaugural episode, What Keeps You Podcasting because you've been around for about ten years now. You started in a radio. So you've been behind a microphone, getting used to the sound of your voice. This idea that I could talk into a microphone podcasting is one of those you really have to fuel from the inside out. It's not something that it doesn't really work as a regular eight to five job because you have to love the work you put into it because it is a product almost of who you are in some cases.

[29:26] - Speaker 1
And even if you're just a voice for someone else, this is still something that comes from a labor of love. So I want to hear from the heart. Matthew, what keeps your podcasting today when times are hard and those days that like, man, is it really worth it.

[29:38] - Speaker 2
Right now? I am personally involved in two main podcasts, one being this one and the other one being cospods and truthfully. Some days I do struggle to get by the microphone, find the time, get the motivation. I've podfaded a few shows of a similar ilk in the past. But when it comes to this show, the passion is kind of like you said. I have these calls with clients all the time. I see these questions in Facebook groups and on Twitter all the time. And the motivation to keep doing this kind of show is the frustration of seeing really bad advice being thrown out there or really obvious advice being missed by people.

[30:33] - Speaker 2
It drives me crazy to see the same question over and over again of like, hey, can I use a Beatle song on my podcast? I don't know. Are you one of the four Beatles?


[30:44] - Speaker 2
Are you the music label that puts out their music?


[30:47] - Speaker 2
Then you don't own the rights of The Beatles music. Stop putting in your podcast, right? Like, it's upsetting to see those questions over and over again. When the a the answer is out there and B, it is sometimes an obvious answer, but wanting to make sure that people get the right information because there's a lot of fraudsters and tricksters and people with nefarious purposes who have gotten their hooks into podcasting because they can use it to nefarious advantages. The other piece of it, and this comes from it's a similar reason.

[31:25] - Speaker 2
On the callspot side, I would say the listenership for call spots is not very big. It's not a show with a mass appeal. We're not nipping at Joe Rogan's heels, and we're not going to. And truthfully, if nobody listened to those episodes, it wouldn't be the end of my day. It doesn't upset me. I honestly enjoy the conversation that I have with those podcasters after the recording is done, sometimes more so than while we're recording. A lot of them have great stories, great causes, great energy, great enthusiasm.

[32:00] - Speaker 2
They are doing something unique and different, and they can tell me about a problem, a cause, a thing that they are doing that I had no ideas about and are interesting and unique and admirable and all those different things. But truthfully, most of the people that I talked to on cospot they are doing this on a shoestring budget. They are doing this alone. They have no support, their boards, their bosses, whoever, just like, we need a podcast. So go figure it out and put a podcast.

[32:29] - Speaker 2
It's like, great. I'm already working 95 hours a week for a nonprofit. Like, sure, what's the podcast too? And so they don't even have time to get good advice, good resources, good help. And so just to take 10, 20, 30 minutes after an interview with someone and be like, hey, your calls is awesome. That was a great conversation, by the way, a couple of things that I see that could be easy improvements for you because these folks have true passion for what they're doing. They have true reason to do what they are doing.

[33:04] - Speaker 2
And they are trying to not just podcast for the sake of podcasting or for the sake of money but they're doing it because they have a mission and a way to make the world a better place. And if I can do anything to help them raise awareness, improve their show, improve their production, heck, even just improve their workflow so that they can spend less time on this and do more good in the world on their cause. That's honestly my favorite part of doing those cause. That's why, unfortunately, these episodes don't necessarily come out regularly because there's not always someone to talk to or other things pop up before we have a chance to put those episodes out.

[33:45] - Speaker 2
But I always get excited when I have another episode of calls parts of the tape. If I thought people would call me to talk about their show and not air it, I would because I like the call even more so than I like having that podcast out in the Ethos. Although I do like it when people listen and get feedback. But typically what happens is somebody pops on, tells their network their network listens. And then those people are like, I don't know who's coming out next week.

[34:11] - Speaker 2
I don't care. So it's not a huge audience.

[34:14] - Speaker 1
What I hear in that is they love of helping someone articulate their voice, because as a podcast or myself that has two podcasts, those ability to keep going to know that hitting published is the most important part to be able to do it effectively. And when you really start to understand the power of your story and your voice, which isn't something you really even fathom. If you're just getting started as an indie podcaster in the beginning, you think you're going to do this and it's going to sounds like a fun idea.

[34:42] - Speaker 1
But then when you start doing it, you realize and you get feedback like, I just help someone and you helping others get out of their own way kind of and help that message spread is one of the things that really keeps you going, because sometimes it's those little small course degree corrections that are going to change everything. And a lot of podcasters just keep doing the same thing without asking a better question. And so the idea of even a podcast consultant isn't something on top of their mind.

[35:08] - Speaker 1
But within the business community, it's always on top of their mind. Business pay consultants all the time to have their problem solved. And when we first started working together, I was like, the podcast consultant. This works perfect, because business already understand what consultants do. They help them ask access questions to answers they don't even know that they need to know or even what they need to ask. And sometimes just you being there to ask that right question. Let them see. Like, we could take this an entirely new direction than we've even considered when we first started launching.

[35:39] - Speaker 1

[35:43] - Speaker 2
It is always nice to work with people who, you know, that these little questions and answers the little piece of advice. The little piece of support is not just helping them with their podcast, but is helping them with their business, right? We don't do a lot of work. I'm not helping GE and Apple and Google with their podcast. And frankly, if we did, it wouldn't make waves and companies that are making billions of dollars every year. But for the folks that we get to help out their businesses is their life is their family, is everything.

[36:19] - Speaker 2
And so if what we do helps them just a little bit more gives them a little bit more stability, a little bit more business, a little bit more pride in what they do.

[36:28] - Speaker 1

[36:29] - Speaker 2
I'm all for it.

[36:31] - Speaker 1
Well, as always, Matthew. The conversation with you are always rich and deep and always full of value. So I really appreciate you jumping on today's episode, and we'll be back next week to answer some more questions for you. Bye.